TSR MODEL HOUSE OF COMMONS (MHOC) CLOSED/DELETED!

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spotify95
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TSR MODEL HOUSE OF COMMONS (MHOC) CLOSED/DELETED!

Postby spotify95 » December 28th, 2020, 6:24 pm

Hello all,

First things first, to all of you that are reading this. This is a semi-private forum between a few regular users and we are not accepting any registrations at the moment. Therefore, the content we make public is because we choose to, for whatever reasoning. No amount of persuasion or threatening behavior will make us change our minds. This content is here to stay, and if you don't like it, then you don't have to visit this website.

It has come to my attention that the Model House Of Commons (MHoC) on The Student Room (TSR) forums has been closed.
Due to my limited presence on TSR Forums, I do not check the Help & Announcements pages regularly, and I have not been a member of the MHoC as it is not the type of content that I am interested in. Having said that, from what I have read so far, the following points have been noticed:

1) The MHoC has been problematic in the amount of resources required by the Community Team and Volunteers, to ensure that content is kept the correct side of the TSR Community Guidelines
2) Various threats have been made about taking action against the MHoC in the past - dating back to as early as 2008 - but nothing of the like of what has recently happened
3) The TSR Community Team have been extremely, and in this case unnecessarily, hasty in their decisions. Without so much as a warning, the entire MHoC has been deleted, as well as any content and usergroups relating to the MHoC. Members were not given any notice whatsoever and the content was pulled within 1 hour of a thread being made in the Help & Announcements section.
4) Furthermore, TSR CT have stated that "to support the community, prevent misinformation and help manage feedback efficiently, we’re limiting the conversation about the closure onsite. We’re requesting that all in-depth questions and feedback is posted directly in the Ask the Community Staff forum. Please ensure all posts within this thread follow Community Guidelines." In my honest opinion, this statement does nothing to show that the TSR Community Team have thought about their actions they have taken, and also proves how hasty the TSR Community Team can be: these are actions that undoubtedly affect a large number of TSR users. Quite often, going to Ask The Community Team/Ask The Community Staff (AtCT/AtCS) does not resolve issues in that only select information is shared, generic responses are given, and whatever information that is helpful enough to serve as an explanation to other members, is locked behind closed doors, thus limiting available information to members who require it.
5) Deleting the best part of 17 years worth of content on a whim is nowhere near justified, especially in this context. Trying to re-write history - or in this case, pretend that past actions didn't even happen - is a very lame excuse to try and cover any of your responsibilities. If you cared about any of your users - particularly the MHoC users - then you should have grouped all of your content into a single, read only forum, that is only accessible to registered users of the site, which cannot be added to or edited, but can be referred back to if required. It is quite commonplace to use archives on public forums, and other forums that I've been to also use the archive feature (and for good reasoning, e.g. to refer back to old discussions, but not to dig up an old, irrelevant discussion for no reason). In my honest opinion, I believe that an archive feature would have been way more appropriate and suitable than deleting over a decade worth of content. This is further reasoning that the Community Team were pressured into this decision, or panicked about how they would resolve this issue (hence the deletion).
6) Further to the above points, only two support/discussion threads were allowed to remain open about this topic: the main Help & Announcements announcement (not that you can call it an announcement when action will be taken in less than an hours' notice) and a dedicated farewell thread. Both have moderation notices scattered throughout them (which are not that helpful) and both have been closed in relatively short periods of time; further providing evidence to suggest that TSR do not want to discuss this matter; they do not want to consider the history that the MHoC has previously had, or to even consider its prior existence on the website.
7) Long time users of TSR MHoC believe that this has not been handled very well at all. I completely agree with the points that these users have made, and agree that this situation has not been handled very well at all. There was no proper chance to disband the MHoC and to say a proper farewell to the MHoC as a society group, since the amount of time between the "announcement" and the deletion of content, as well as the amount of time between the "announcement" and the closing of the support threads, was far too short. Changes that affect a large number of users like this should be carefully considered, and the appropriate actions taken with plenty of advance warning.
For example, when the TSR Volunteers (and the Community Team) wanted inputs into how to best manage the Forum Games subsection, they made a sticky announcement at the top of the forum subsection. The announcement is still stickied to the top of Forum Games even two years after its creation, emphasizing the point of using announcements to get the attention of forum members, in order to improve the service. In fact, even when Forum Games got too cluttered, the Volunteer Team (referred to as Moderators or Section Leaders back then) tagged me into a discussion and made sure that I was aware of what needed doing to improve that section of the site (since I was playing a big part in how Forum Games was shaping out to be).
Therefore, if the Community Team were taking this seriously, due to how many users this decision would be impacting, then the main "announcement" thread should have been stickied to the top of Help & Announcements for at least the day that full day of December 10, 2020, when the actions were taking place - though ideally, such an announcement (even if in read only mode) should have been made (and stickied) for much longer, i.e. the entirety of December, so that members could prepare for what was happening, and members who were not regular users of the MHoC could also be notified before it was too late. This would have also allowed for the entirety of the MHoC forums to be archived externally through a different website, such as the Internet Archive.
8) It seems like users of the MHoC have created external communications channels, such as Discord servers. Apparently, according to the Community Team, Discord "causes risks to the onsite community by: diluting the conversation and reducing engagement on TSR; allowing members banned from TSR to continue participating in the game and influencing those who play; presenting risks around young/vulnerable members being unfairly drawn into conversations off TSR where TSR guidelines/moderation can't support them, creating an environment where activities like doxing, bullying and harassment occur, which introduce a high level of complication to the TSR moderation process".
Let me state right now that Discord has its own terms of service which are in place to protect users - though specifics are often down to the hosts of the servers in question. However, what the Community Team have stated here is, to a point, simply untrue: it is a users' decision as to whether they want to participate on Discord or not, and since Discord is a totally different website to The Student Room, the TSR "Community Guidelines" have no effect on what a user can, or cannot, post on Discord. In addition to this, users on TSR simply cannot be moderated based on discussions and content that have happened on websites and communication channels that are external to The Student Room; for TSR to take action, the content must belong to them - meaning that the content must (in some form or another) be present on communication channels that The Student Room Group Ltd own, and have full influence over, i.e. The Student Room website (and all associated content, such as the forums), and ONLY The Student Room website. If people who are banned from The Student Room are also present on a Discord server (and are not banned from that Discord server), then they have every right to participate in the Discord based activities, as it is external to The Student Room. Activities such as "doxing, bullying and harassment" would be dealt with on a case by case basis, and would likely break Discord's terms of service (or at least the rules of most Discord servers, thus resulting in the loss of privileges, or being banned in that server) and "a high level of complication to the TSR moderation process" is irrelevant anyway because, as previously stated above, TSR do not own any property of a Discord server (unless it is a Discord server that is specifically set up, administered by, and managed by, the TSR Community Team) and therefore cannot take action based on content that they do not own. Only content that is uploaded to The Student Room can be managed and moderated by TSR Community Team members, and therefore users of TSR cannot be warned, moderated, or banned, based on actions taken on a Discord server (the same can be said for any other public domain that TSR do not own, such as the TBAAJ forums).

Conclusions:
The obvious take-home conclusion here is that TSR's Community Team have been far too hasty in trying to resolve a problem that has been part of their site. Trying to resolve things by making drastic changes to their website, as well as the content of a significant number of members, was not the right decision, both from a moral perspective and a moderation perspective. Creating a read-only archive section would have resolved the issues raised with moderation, as well as giving members the ability to refer to, and reflect upon, content that has previously been posted. Giving members more time to read the announcement (and take appropriate action) would have also been a much better solution, extending the time before action to a minimum of 24 hours (preferably longer). Having limited avenues for discussion outside the "Ask The Community Team" forums is also very unhelpful for those members who may have been a part of the MHoC.

Please Note: This content will NOT be moved, edited, removed, or deleted. Using external influences (i.e. influences outside of TBAAJ) to have the content removed/edited/moved etc will not work and will either be refused or ignored. If you are offended by the aforementioned actions then do not use tactics to make us change our minds. It is your choice on whether you read or visit this website; we are not responsible for your actions taken. This thread, as well as all content posted within, will remain public unless we (the owners of TBAAJ Forums) choose otherwise.


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pinkteddyx64
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Re: TSR MODEL HOUSE OF COMMONS (MHOC) CLOSED/DELETED!

Postby pinkteddyx64 » December 28th, 2020, 6:37 pm

spotify95 wrote:Hello all,

First things first, to all of you that are reading this. This is a semi-private forum between a few regular users and we are not accepting any registrations at the moment. Therefore, the content we make public is because we choose to, for whatever reasoning. No amount of persuasion or threatening behavior will make us change our minds. This content is here to stay, and if you don't like it, then you don't have to visit this website.

It has come to my attention that the Model House Of Commons (MHoC) on The Student Room (TSR) forums has been closed.
Due to my limited presence on TSR Forums, I do not check the Help & Announcements pages regularly, and I have not been a member of the MHoC as it is not the type of content that I am interested in. Having said that, from what I have read so far, the following points have been noticed:

1) The MHoC has been problematic in the amount of resources required by the Community Team and Volunteers, to ensure that content is kept the correct side of the TSR Community Guidelines
2) Various threats have been made about taking action against the MHoC in the past - dating back to as early as 2008 - but nothing of the like of what has recently happened
3) The TSR Community Team have been extremely, and in this case unnecessarily, hasty in their decisions. Without so much as a warning, the entire MHoC has been deleted, as well as any content and usergroups relating to the MHoC. Members were not given any notice whatsoever and the content was pulled within 1 hour of a thread being made in the Help & Announcements section.
4) Furthermore, TSR CT have stated that "to support the community, prevent misinformation and help manage feedback efficiently, we’re limiting the conversation about the closure onsite. We’re requesting that all in-depth questions and feedback is posted directly in the Ask the Community Staff forum. Please ensure all posts within this thread follow Community Guidelines." In my honest opinion, this statement does nothing to show that the TSR Community Team have thought about their actions they have taken, and also proves how hasty the TSR Community Team can be: these are actions that undoubtedly affect a large number of TSR users. Quite often, going to Ask The Community Team/Ask The Community Staff (AtCT/AtCS) does not resolve issues in that only select information is shared, generic responses are given, and whatever information that is helpful enough to serve as an explanation to other members, is locked behind closed doors, thus limiting available information to members who require it.
5) Deleting the best part of 17 years worth of content on a whim is nowhere near justified, especially in this context. Trying to re-write history - or in this case, pretend that past actions didn't even happen - is a very lame excuse to try and cover any of your responsibilities. If you cared about any of your users - particularly the MHoC users - then you should have grouped all of your content into a single, read only forum, that is only accessible to registered users of the site, which cannot be added to or edited, but can be referred back to if required. It is quite commonplace to use archives on public forums, and other forums that I've been to also use the archive feature (and for good reasoning, e.g. to refer back to old discussions, but not to dig up an old, irrelevant discussion for no reason). In my honest opinion, I believe that an archive feature would have been way more appropriate and suitable than deleting over a decade worth of content. This is further reasoning that the Community Team were pressured into this decision, or panicked about how they would resolve this issue (hence the deletion).
6) Further to the above points, only two support/discussion threads were allowed to remain open about this topic: the main Help & Announcements announcement (not that you can call it an announcement when action will be taken in less than an hours' notice) and a dedicated farewell thread. Both have moderation notices scattered throughout them (which are not that helpful) and both have been closed in relatively short periods of time; further providing evidence to suggest that TSR do not want to discuss this matter; they do not want to consider the history that the MHoC has previously had, or to even consider its prior existence on the website.
7) Long time users of TSR MHoC believe that this has not been handled very well at all. I completely agree with the points that these users have made, and agree that this situation has not been handled very well at all. There was no proper chance to disband the MHoC and to say a proper farewell to the MHoC as a society group, since the amount of time between the "announcement" and the deletion of content, as well as the amount of time between the "announcement" and the closing of the support threads, was far too short. Changes that affect a large number of users like this should be carefully considered, and the appropriate actions taken with plenty of advance warning.
For example, when the TSR Volunteers (and the Community Team) wanted inputs into how to best manage the Forum Games subsection, they made a sticky announcement at the top of the forum subsection. The announcement is still stickied to the top of Forum Games even two years after its creation, emphasizing the point of using announcements to get the attention of forum members, in order to improve the service. In fact, even when Forum Games got too cluttered, the Volunteer Team (referred to as Moderators or Section Leaders back then) tagged me into a discussion and made sure that I was aware of what needed doing to improve that section of the site (since I was playing a big part in how Forum Games was shaping out to be).
Therefore, if the Community Team were taking this seriously, due to how many users this decision would be impacting, then the main "announcement" thread should have been stickied to the top of Help & Announcements for at least the day that full day of December 10, 2020, when the actions were taking place - though ideally, such an announcement (even if in read only mode) should have been made (and stickied) for much longer, i.e. the entirety of December, so that members could prepare for what was happening, and members who were not regular users of the MHoC could also be notified before it was too late. This would have also allowed for the entirety of the MHoC forums to be archived externally through a different website, such as the Internet Archive.
8) It seems like users of the MHoC have created external communications channels, such as Discord servers. Apparently, according to the Community Team, Discord "causes risks to the onsite community by: diluting the conversation and reducing engagement on TSR; allowing members banned from TSR to continue participating in the game and influencing those who play; presenting risks around young/vulnerable members being unfairly drawn into conversations off TSR where TSR guidelines/moderation can't support them, creating an environment where activities like doxing, bullying and harassment occur, which introduce a high level of complication to the TSR moderation process".
Let me state right now that Discord has its own terms of service which are in place to protect users - though specifics are often down to the hosts of the servers in question. However, what the Community Team have stated here is, to a point, simply untrue: it is a users' decision as to whether they want to participate on Discord or not, and since Discord is a totally different website to The Student Room, the TSR "Community Guidelines" have no effect on what a user can, or cannot, post on Discord. In addition to this, users on TSR simply cannot be moderated based on discussions and content that have happened on websites and communication channels that are external to The Student Room; for TSR to take action, the content must belong to them - meaning that the content must (in some form or another) be present on communication channels that The Student Room Group Ltd own, and have full influence over, i.e. The Student Room website (and all associated content, such as the forums), and ONLY The Student Room website. If people who are banned from The Student Room are also present on a Discord server (and are not banned from that Discord server), then they have every right to participate in the Discord based activities, as it is external to The Student Room. Activities such as "doxing, bullying and harassment" would be dealt with on a case by case basis, and would likely break Discord's terms of service (or at least the rules of most Discord servers, thus resulting in the loss of privileges, or being banned in that server) and "a high level of complication to the TSR moderation process" is irrelevant anyway because, as previously stated above, TSR do not own any property of a Discord server (unless it is a Discord server that is specifically set up, administered by, and managed by, the TSR Community Team) and therefore cannot take action based on content that they do not own. Only content that is uploaded to The Student Room can be managed and moderated by TSR Community Team members, and therefore users of TSR cannot be warned, moderated, or banned, based on actions taken on a Discord server (the same can be said for any other public domain that TSR do not own, such as the TBAAJ forums).

Conclusions:
The obvious take-home conclusion here is that TSR's Community Team have been far too hasty in trying to resolve a problem that has been part of their site. Trying to resolve things by making drastic changes to their website, as well as the content of a significant number of members, was not the right decision, both from a moral perspective and a moderation perspective. Creating a read-only archive section would have resolved the issues raised with moderation, as well as giving members the ability to refer to, and reflect upon, content that has previously been posted. Giving members more time to read the announcement (and take appropriate action) would have also been a much better solution, extending the time before action to a minimum of 24 hours (preferably longer). Having limited avenues for discussion outside the "Ask The Community Team" forums is also very unhelpful for those members who may have been a part of the MHoC.

Please Note: This content will NOT be moved, edited, removed, or deleted. Using external influences (i.e. influences outside of TBAAJ) to have the content removed/edited/moved etc will not work and will either be refused or ignored. If you are offended by the aforementioned actions then do not use tactics to make us change our minds. It is your choice on whether you read or visit this website; we are not responsible for your actions taken. This thread, as well as all content posted within, will remain public unless we (the owners of TBAAJ Forums) choose otherwise.


Do you know if Mhoc has been physically removed from the forum database or if they've 'soft deleted' the lot by putting it into the recycle bin, so in effect it still exists but not to the public?

Also, this being curtains for Mhoc I suppose is exactly what you feared would happen with forum games if I continued creating new accounts to post on ctam with?


Imageeriously, life's too short to be worried about retards on an internet forum. :eek2: :eek3:
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spotify95
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Re: TSR MODEL HOUSE OF COMMONS (MHOC) CLOSED/DELETED!

Postby spotify95 » December 28th, 2020, 8:30 pm

pinkteddyx64 wrote:
spotify95 wrote:Hello all,

First things first, to all of you that are reading this. This is a semi-private forum between a few regular users and we are not accepting any registrations at the moment. Therefore, the content we make public is because we choose to, for whatever reasoning. No amount of persuasion or threatening behavior will make us change our minds. This content is here to stay, and if you don't like it, then you don't have to visit this website.

It has come to my attention that the Model House Of Commons (MHoC) on The Student Room (TSR) forums has been closed.
Due to my limited presence on TSR Forums, I do not check the Help & Announcements pages regularly, and I have not been a member of the MHoC as it is not the type of content that I am interested in. Having said that, from what I have read so far, the following points have been noticed:

1) The MHoC has been problematic in the amount of resources required by the Community Team and Volunteers, to ensure that content is kept the correct side of the TSR Community Guidelines
2) Various threats have been made about taking action against the MHoC in the past - dating back to as early as 2008 - but nothing of the like of what has recently happened
3) The TSR Community Team have been extremely, and in this case unnecessarily, hasty in their decisions. Without so much as a warning, the entire MHoC has been deleted, as well as any content and usergroups relating to the MHoC. Members were not given any notice whatsoever and the content was pulled within 1 hour of a thread being made in the Help & Announcements section.
4) Furthermore, TSR CT have stated that "to support the community, prevent misinformation and help manage feedback efficiently, we’re limiting the conversation about the closure onsite. We’re requesting that all in-depth questions and feedback is posted directly in the Ask the Community Staff forum. Please ensure all posts within this thread follow Community Guidelines." In my honest opinion, this statement does nothing to show that the TSR Community Team have thought about their actions they have taken, and also proves how hasty the TSR Community Team can be: these are actions that undoubtedly affect a large number of TSR users. Quite often, going to Ask The Community Team/Ask The Community Staff (AtCT/AtCS) does not resolve issues in that only select information is shared, generic responses are given, and whatever information that is helpful enough to serve as an explanation to other members, is locked behind closed doors, thus limiting available information to members who require it.
5) Deleting the best part of 17 years worth of content on a whim is nowhere near justified, especially in this context. Trying to re-write history - or in this case, pretend that past actions didn't even happen - is a very lame excuse to try and cover any of your responsibilities. If you cared about any of your users - particularly the MHoC users - then you should have grouped all of your content into a single, read only forum, that is only accessible to registered users of the site, which cannot be added to or edited, but can be referred back to if required. It is quite commonplace to use archives on public forums, and other forums that I've been to also use the archive feature (and for good reasoning, e.g. to refer back to old discussions, but not to dig up an old, irrelevant discussion for no reason). In my honest opinion, I believe that an archive feature would have been way more appropriate and suitable than deleting over a decade worth of content. This is further reasoning that the Community Team were pressured into this decision, or panicked about how they would resolve this issue (hence the deletion).
6) Further to the above points, only two support/discussion threads were allowed to remain open about this topic: the main Help & Announcements announcement (not that you can call it an announcement when action will be taken in less than an hours' notice) and a dedicated farewell thread. Both have moderation notices scattered throughout them (which are not that helpful) and both have been closed in relatively short periods of time; further providing evidence to suggest that TSR do not want to discuss this matter; they do not want to consider the history that the MHoC has previously had, or to even consider its prior existence on the website.
7) Long time users of TSR MHoC believe that this has not been handled very well at all. I completely agree with the points that these users have made, and agree that this situation has not been handled very well at all. There was no proper chance to disband the MHoC and to say a proper farewell to the MHoC as a society group, since the amount of time between the "announcement" and the deletion of content, as well as the amount of time between the "announcement" and the closing of the support threads, was far too short. Changes that affect a large number of users like this should be carefully considered, and the appropriate actions taken with plenty of advance warning.
For example, when the TSR Volunteers (and the Community Team) wanted inputs into how to best manage the Forum Games subsection, they made a sticky announcement at the top of the forum subsection. The announcement is still stickied to the top of Forum Games even two years after its creation, emphasizing the point of using announcements to get the attention of forum members, in order to improve the service. In fact, even when Forum Games got too cluttered, the Volunteer Team (referred to as Moderators or Section Leaders back then) tagged me into a discussion and made sure that I was aware of what needed doing to improve that section of the site (since I was playing a big part in how Forum Games was shaping out to be).
Therefore, if the Community Team were taking this seriously, due to how many users this decision would be impacting, then the main "announcement" thread should have been stickied to the top of Help & Announcements for at least the day that full day of December 10, 2020, when the actions were taking place - though ideally, such an announcement (even if in read only mode) should have been made (and stickied) for much longer, i.e. the entirety of December, so that members could prepare for what was happening, and members who were not regular users of the MHoC could also be notified before it was too late. This would have also allowed for the entirety of the MHoC forums to be archived externally through a different website, such as the Internet Archive.
8) It seems like users of the MHoC have created external communications channels, such as Discord servers. Apparently, according to the Community Team, Discord "causes risks to the onsite community by: diluting the conversation and reducing engagement on TSR; allowing members banned from TSR to continue participating in the game and influencing those who play; presenting risks around young/vulnerable members being unfairly drawn into conversations off TSR where TSR guidelines/moderation can't support them, creating an environment where activities like doxing, bullying and harassment occur, which introduce a high level of complication to the TSR moderation process".
Let me state right now that Discord has its own terms of service which are in place to protect users - though specifics are often down to the hosts of the servers in question. However, what the Community Team have stated here is, to a point, simply untrue: it is a users' decision as to whether they want to participate on Discord or not, and since Discord is a totally different website to The Student Room, the TSR "Community Guidelines" have no effect on what a user can, or cannot, post on Discord. In addition to this, users on TSR simply cannot be moderated based on discussions and content that have happened on websites and communication channels that are external to The Student Room; for TSR to take action, the content must belong to them - meaning that the content must (in some form or another) be present on communication channels that The Student Room Group Ltd own, and have full influence over, i.e. The Student Room website (and all associated content, such as the forums), and ONLY The Student Room website. If people who are banned from The Student Room are also present on a Discord server (and are not banned from that Discord server), then they have every right to participate in the Discord based activities, as it is external to The Student Room. Activities such as "doxing, bullying and harassment" would be dealt with on a case by case basis, and would likely break Discord's terms of service (or at least the rules of most Discord servers, thus resulting in the loss of privileges, or being banned in that server) and "a high level of complication to the TSR moderation process" is irrelevant anyway because, as previously stated above, TSR do not own any property of a Discord server (unless it is a Discord server that is specifically set up, administered by, and managed by, the TSR Community Team) and therefore cannot take action based on content that they do not own. Only content that is uploaded to The Student Room can be managed and moderated by TSR Community Team members, and therefore users of TSR cannot be warned, moderated, or banned, based on actions taken on a Discord server (the same can be said for any other public domain that TSR do not own, such as the TBAAJ forums).

Conclusions:
The obvious take-home conclusion here is that TSR's Community Team have been far too hasty in trying to resolve a problem that has been part of their site. Trying to resolve things by making drastic changes to their website, as well as the content of a significant number of members, was not the right decision, both from a moral perspective and a moderation perspective. Creating a read-only archive section would have resolved the issues raised with moderation, as well as giving members the ability to refer to, and reflect upon, content that has previously been posted. Giving members more time to read the announcement (and take appropriate action) would have also been a much better solution, extending the time before action to a minimum of 24 hours (preferably longer). Having limited avenues for discussion outside the "Ask The Community Team" forums is also very unhelpful for those members who may have been a part of the MHoC.

Please Note: This content will NOT be moved, edited, removed, or deleted. Using external influences (i.e. influences outside of TBAAJ) to have the content removed/edited/moved etc will not work and will either be refused or ignored. If you are offended by the aforementioned actions then do not use tactics to make us change our minds. It is your choice on whether you read or visit this website; we are not responsible for your actions taken. This thread, as well as all content posted within, will remain public unless we (the owners of TBAAJ Forums) choose otherwise.


Do you know if Mhoc has been physically removed from the forum database or if they've 'soft deleted' the lot by putting it into the recycle bin, so in effect it still exists but not to the public?

Also, this being curtains for Mhoc I suppose is exactly what you feared would happen with forum games if I continued creating new accounts to post on ctam with?


I can only quote what Blinky Bill (a TSR Community Team member) wrote: ..."The MHOC forums have now been closed. This error message is because the forums are no longer accessible."
So it seems like a soft deletion whereby the content is still present, but the permissions have been set so that only the Community Team can view the posts.
The MHoC specific usergroups have been removed, though I am unsure as to whether this was a "soft removal" or a deletion of the groups. My thinking is that it could be the latter, since the MHoC has been removed from view.

The MHoC forum link: https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=102 takes you to the sign in page, so you have to log in to view the content. This confirms that it is a soft deletion and that access is based on privileges that only the CT have.

The introduction page to the MHoC now just redirects to the UK Politics forums. So it seems like some articles have been completely deleted.

Indeed, this is what I was fearing would happen to TSR Forum Games, and if they've shown they can do this to the MHoC, a subsection which has had significant user activity over the years, then they can do it to any other part of the TSR website as well (though removing parts of your website that people spend significant amounts of activity in is not your smartest move if you want to keep your user base).


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Re: TSR MODEL HOUSE OF COMMONS (MHOC) CLOSED/DELETED!

Postby pinkteddyx64 » December 28th, 2020, 9:08 pm

spotify95 wrote:
pinkteddyx64 wrote:
spotify95 wrote:Hello all,

First things first, to all of you that are reading this. This is a semi-private forum between a few regular users and we are not accepting any registrations at the moment. Therefore, the content we make public is because we choose to, for whatever reasoning. No amount of persuasion or threatening behavior will make us change our minds. This content is here to stay, and if you don't like it, then you don't have to visit this website.

It has come to my attention that the Model House Of Commons (MHoC) on The Student Room (TSR) forums has been closed.
Due to my limited presence on TSR Forums, I do not check the Help & Announcements pages regularly, and I have not been a member of the MHoC as it is not the type of content that I am interested in. Having said that, from what I have read so far, the following points have been noticed:

1) The MHoC has been problematic in the amount of resources required by the Community Team and Volunteers, to ensure that content is kept the correct side of the TSR Community Guidelines
2) Various threats have been made about taking action against the MHoC in the past - dating back to as early as 2008 - but nothing of the like of what has recently happened
3) The TSR Community Team have been extremely, and in this case unnecessarily, hasty in their decisions. Without so much as a warning, the entire MHoC has been deleted, as well as any content and usergroups relating to the MHoC. Members were not given any notice whatsoever and the content was pulled within 1 hour of a thread being made in the Help & Announcements section.
4) Furthermore, TSR CT have stated that "to support the community, prevent misinformation and help manage feedback efficiently, we’re limiting the conversation about the closure onsite. We’re requesting that all in-depth questions and feedback is posted directly in the Ask the Community Staff forum. Please ensure all posts within this thread follow Community Guidelines." In my honest opinion, this statement does nothing to show that the TSR Community Team have thought about their actions they have taken, and also proves how hasty the TSR Community Team can be: these are actions that undoubtedly affect a large number of TSR users. Quite often, going to Ask The Community Team/Ask The Community Staff (AtCT/AtCS) does not resolve issues in that only select information is shared, generic responses are given, and whatever information that is helpful enough to serve as an explanation to other members, is locked behind closed doors, thus limiting available information to members who require it.
5) Deleting the best part of 17 years worth of content on a whim is nowhere near justified, especially in this context. Trying to re-write history - or in this case, pretend that past actions didn't even happen - is a very lame excuse to try and cover any of your responsibilities. If you cared about any of your users - particularly the MHoC users - then you should have grouped all of your content into a single, read only forum, that is only accessible to registered users of the site, which cannot be added to or edited, but can be referred back to if required. It is quite commonplace to use archives on public forums, and other forums that I've been to also use the archive feature (and for good reasoning, e.g. to refer back to old discussions, but not to dig up an old, irrelevant discussion for no reason). In my honest opinion, I believe that an archive feature would have been way more appropriate and suitable than deleting over a decade worth of content. This is further reasoning that the Community Team were pressured into this decision, or panicked about how they would resolve this issue (hence the deletion).
6) Further to the above points, only two support/discussion threads were allowed to remain open about this topic: the main Help & Announcements announcement (not that you can call it an announcement when action will be taken in less than an hours' notice) and a dedicated farewell thread. Both have moderation notices scattered throughout them (which are not that helpful) and both have been closed in relatively short periods of time; further providing evidence to suggest that TSR do not want to discuss this matter; they do not want to consider the history that the MHoC has previously had, or to even consider its prior existence on the website.
7) Long time users of TSR MHoC believe that this has not been handled very well at all. I completely agree with the points that these users have made, and agree that this situation has not been handled very well at all. There was no proper chance to disband the MHoC and to say a proper farewell to the MHoC as a society group, since the amount of time between the "announcement" and the deletion of content, as well as the amount of time between the "announcement" and the closing of the support threads, was far too short. Changes that affect a large number of users like this should be carefully considered, and the appropriate actions taken with plenty of advance warning.
For example, when the TSR Volunteers (and the Community Team) wanted inputs into how to best manage the Forum Games subsection, they made a sticky announcement at the top of the forum subsection. The announcement is still stickied to the top of Forum Games even two years after its creation, emphasizing the point of using announcements to get the attention of forum members, in order to improve the service. In fact, even when Forum Games got too cluttered, the Volunteer Team (referred to as Moderators or Section Leaders back then) tagged me into a discussion and made sure that I was aware of what needed doing to improve that section of the site (since I was playing a big part in how Forum Games was shaping out to be).
Therefore, if the Community Team were taking this seriously, due to how many users this decision would be impacting, then the main "announcement" thread should have been stickied to the top of Help & Announcements for at least the day that full day of December 10, 2020, when the actions were taking place - though ideally, such an announcement (even if in read only mode) should have been made (and stickied) for much longer, i.e. the entirety of December, so that members could prepare for what was happening, and members who were not regular users of the MHoC could also be notified before it was too late. This would have also allowed for the entirety of the MHoC forums to be archived externally through a different website, such as the Internet Archive.
8) It seems like users of the MHoC have created external communications channels, such as Discord servers. Apparently, according to the Community Team, Discord "causes risks to the onsite community by: diluting the conversation and reducing engagement on TSR; allowing members banned from TSR to continue participating in the game and influencing those who play; presenting risks around young/vulnerable members being unfairly drawn into conversations off TSR where TSR guidelines/moderation can't support them, creating an environment where activities like doxing, bullying and harassment occur, which introduce a high level of complication to the TSR moderation process".
Let me state right now that Discord has its own terms of service which are in place to protect users - though specifics are often down to the hosts of the servers in question. However, what the Community Team have stated here is, to a point, simply untrue: it is a users' decision as to whether they want to participate on Discord or not, and since Discord is a totally different website to The Student Room, the TSR "Community Guidelines" have no effect on what a user can, or cannot, post on Discord. In addition to this, users on TSR simply cannot be moderated based on discussions and content that have happened on websites and communication channels that are external to The Student Room; for TSR to take action, the content must belong to them - meaning that the content must (in some form or another) be present on communication channels that The Student Room Group Ltd own, and have full influence over, i.e. The Student Room website (and all associated content, such as the forums), and ONLY The Student Room website. If people who are banned from The Student Room are also present on a Discord server (and are not banned from that Discord server), then they have every right to participate in the Discord based activities, as it is external to The Student Room. Activities such as "doxing, bullying and harassment" would be dealt with on a case by case basis, and would likely break Discord's terms of service (or at least the rules of most Discord servers, thus resulting in the loss of privileges, or being banned in that server) and "a high level of complication to the TSR moderation process" is irrelevant anyway because, as previously stated above, TSR do not own any property of a Discord server (unless it is a Discord server that is specifically set up, administered by, and managed by, the TSR Community Team) and therefore cannot take action based on content that they do not own. Only content that is uploaded to The Student Room can be managed and moderated by TSR Community Team members, and therefore users of TSR cannot be warned, moderated, or banned, based on actions taken on a Discord server (the same can be said for any other public domain that TSR do not own, such as the TBAAJ forums).

Conclusions:
The obvious take-home conclusion here is that TSR's Community Team have been far too hasty in trying to resolve a problem that has been part of their site. Trying to resolve things by making drastic changes to their website, as well as the content of a significant number of members, was not the right decision, both from a moral perspective and a moderation perspective. Creating a read-only archive section would have resolved the issues raised with moderation, as well as giving members the ability to refer to, and reflect upon, content that has previously been posted. Giving members more time to read the announcement (and take appropriate action) would have also been a much better solution, extending the time before action to a minimum of 24 hours (preferably longer). Having limited avenues for discussion outside the "Ask The Community Team" forums is also very unhelpful for those members who may have been a part of the MHoC.

Please Note: This content will NOT be moved, edited, removed, or deleted. Using external influences (i.e. influences outside of TBAAJ) to have the content removed/edited/moved etc will not work and will either be refused or ignored. If you are offended by the aforementioned actions then do not use tactics to make us change our minds. It is your choice on whether you read or visit this website; we are not responsible for your actions taken. This thread, as well as all content posted within, will remain public unless we (the owners of TBAAJ Forums) choose otherwise.


Do you know if Mhoc has been physically removed from the forum database or if they've 'soft deleted' the lot by putting it into the recycle bin, so in effect it still exists but not to the public?

Also, this being curtains for Mhoc I suppose is exactly what you feared would happen with forum games if I continued creating new accounts to post on ctam with?


I can only quote what Blinky Bill (a TSR Community Team member) wrote: ..."The MHOC forums have now been closed. This error message is because the forums are no longer accessible."
So it seems like a soft deletion whereby the content is still present, but the permissions have been set so that only the Community Team can view the posts.
The MHoC specific usergroups have been removed, though I am unsure as to whether this was a "soft removal" or a deletion of the groups. My thinking is that it could be the latter, since the MHoC has been removed from view.

The MHoC forum link: https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=102 takes you to the sign in page, so you have to log in to view the content. This confirms that it is a soft deletion and that access is based on privileges that only the CT have.

The introduction page to the MHoC now just redirects to the UK Politics forums. So it seems like some articles have been completely deleted.

Indeed, this is what I was fearing would happen to TSR Forum Games, and if they've shown they can do this to the MHoC, a subsection which has had significant user activity over the years, then they can do it to any other part of the TSR website as well (though removing parts of your website that people spend significant amounts of activity in is not your smartest move if you want to keep your user base).

That's at least comforting to know that at least the 17 years of community spirit and good will built up by the Mhoc haven't completely gone down the drain, just slightly annoying it cannot be accessed any longer, although many users who aren't as technically minded as you or I, therefore probably won't understand the concept of 'soft delete' will likely be far more gutted.

I'm sure that if we took over the running of TSR, you'd at least make Mhoc a publicly accessible read only archive if nothing else?


Imageeriously, life's too short to be worried about retards on an internet forum. :eek2: :eek3:
Image
spotify95
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Posts: 7910
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Re: TSR MODEL HOUSE OF COMMONS (MHOC) CLOSED/DELETED!

Postby spotify95 » January 17th, 2021, 3:15 pm

pinkteddyx64 wrote:
spotify95 wrote:
pinkteddyx64 wrote:
spotify95 wrote:Hello all,

First things first, to all of you that are reading this. This is a semi-private forum between a few regular users and we are not accepting any registrations at the moment. Therefore, the content we make public is because we choose to, for whatever reasoning. No amount of persuasion or threatening behavior will make us change our minds. This content is here to stay, and if you don't like it, then you don't have to visit this website.

It has come to my attention that the Model House Of Commons (MHoC) on The Student Room (TSR) forums has been closed.
Due to my limited presence on TSR Forums, I do not check the Help & Announcements pages regularly, and I have not been a member of the MHoC as it is not the type of content that I am interested in. Having said that, from what I have read so far, the following points have been noticed:

1) The MHoC has been problematic in the amount of resources required by the Community Team and Volunteers, to ensure that content is kept the correct side of the TSR Community Guidelines
2) Various threats have been made about taking action against the MHoC in the past - dating back to as early as 2008 - but nothing of the like of what has recently happened
3) The TSR Community Team have been extremely, and in this case unnecessarily, hasty in their decisions. Without so much as a warning, the entire MHoC has been deleted, as well as any content and usergroups relating to the MHoC. Members were not given any notice whatsoever and the content was pulled within 1 hour of a thread being made in the Help & Announcements section.
4) Furthermore, TSR CT have stated that "to support the community, prevent misinformation and help manage feedback efficiently, we’re limiting the conversation about the closure onsite. We’re requesting that all in-depth questions and feedback is posted directly in the Ask the Community Staff forum. Please ensure all posts within this thread follow Community Guidelines." In my honest opinion, this statement does nothing to show that the TSR Community Team have thought about their actions they have taken, and also proves how hasty the TSR Community Team can be: these are actions that undoubtedly affect a large number of TSR users. Quite often, going to Ask The Community Team/Ask The Community Staff (AtCT/AtCS) does not resolve issues in that only select information is shared, generic responses are given, and whatever information that is helpful enough to serve as an explanation to other members, is locked behind closed doors, thus limiting available information to members who require it.
5) Deleting the best part of 17 years worth of content on a whim is nowhere near justified, especially in this context. Trying to re-write history - or in this case, pretend that past actions didn't even happen - is a very lame excuse to try and cover any of your responsibilities. If you cared about any of your users - particularly the MHoC users - then you should have grouped all of your content into a single, read only forum, that is only accessible to registered users of the site, which cannot be added to or edited, but can be referred back to if required. It is quite commonplace to use archives on public forums, and other forums that I've been to also use the archive feature (and for good reasoning, e.g. to refer back to old discussions, but not to dig up an old, irrelevant discussion for no reason). In my honest opinion, I believe that an archive feature would have been way more appropriate and suitable than deleting over a decade worth of content. This is further reasoning that the Community Team were pressured into this decision, or panicked about how they would resolve this issue (hence the deletion).
6) Further to the above points, only two support/discussion threads were allowed to remain open about this topic: the main Help & Announcements announcement (not that you can call it an announcement when action will be taken in less than an hours' notice) and a dedicated farewell thread. Both have moderation notices scattered throughout them (which are not that helpful) and both have been closed in relatively short periods of time; further providing evidence to suggest that TSR do not want to discuss this matter; they do not want to consider the history that the MHoC has previously had, or to even consider its prior existence on the website.
7) Long time users of TSR MHoC believe that this has not been handled very well at all. I completely agree with the points that these users have made, and agree that this situation has not been handled very well at all. There was no proper chance to disband the MHoC and to say a proper farewell to the MHoC as a society group, since the amount of time between the "announcement" and the deletion of content, as well as the amount of time between the "announcement" and the closing of the support threads, was far too short. Changes that affect a large number of users like this should be carefully considered, and the appropriate actions taken with plenty of advance warning.
For example, when the TSR Volunteers (and the Community Team) wanted inputs into how to best manage the Forum Games subsection, they made a sticky announcement at the top of the forum subsection. The announcement is still stickied to the top of Forum Games even two years after its creation, emphasizing the point of using announcements to get the attention of forum members, in order to improve the service. In fact, even when Forum Games got too cluttered, the Volunteer Team (referred to as Moderators or Section Leaders back then) tagged me into a discussion and made sure that I was aware of what needed doing to improve that section of the site (since I was playing a big part in how Forum Games was shaping out to be).
Therefore, if the Community Team were taking this seriously, due to how many users this decision would be impacting, then the main "announcement" thread should have been stickied to the top of Help & Announcements for at least the day that full day of December 10, 2020, when the actions were taking place - though ideally, such an announcement (even if in read only mode) should have been made (and stickied) for much longer, i.e. the entirety of December, so that members could prepare for what was happening, and members who were not regular users of the MHoC could also be notified before it was too late. This would have also allowed for the entirety of the MHoC forums to be archived externally through a different website, such as the Internet Archive.
8) It seems like users of the MHoC have created external communications channels, such as Discord servers. Apparently, according to the Community Team, Discord "causes risks to the onsite community by: diluting the conversation and reducing engagement on TSR; allowing members banned from TSR to continue participating in the game and influencing those who play; presenting risks around young/vulnerable members being unfairly drawn into conversations off TSR where TSR guidelines/moderation can't support them, creating an environment where activities like doxing, bullying and harassment occur, which introduce a high level of complication to the TSR moderation process".
Let me state right now that Discord has its own terms of service which are in place to protect users - though specifics are often down to the hosts of the servers in question. However, what the Community Team have stated here is, to a point, simply untrue: it is a users' decision as to whether they want to participate on Discord or not, and since Discord is a totally different website to The Student Room, the TSR "Community Guidelines" have no effect on what a user can, or cannot, post on Discord. In addition to this, users on TSR simply cannot be moderated based on discussions and content that have happened on websites and communication channels that are external to The Student Room; for TSR to take action, the content must belong to them - meaning that the content must (in some form or another) be present on communication channels that The Student Room Group Ltd own, and have full influence over, i.e. The Student Room website (and all associated content, such as the forums), and ONLY The Student Room website. If people who are banned from The Student Room are also present on a Discord server (and are not banned from that Discord server), then they have every right to participate in the Discord based activities, as it is external to The Student Room. Activities such as "doxing, bullying and harassment" would be dealt with on a case by case basis, and would likely break Discord's terms of service (or at least the rules of most Discord servers, thus resulting in the loss of privileges, or being banned in that server) and "a high level of complication to the TSR moderation process" is irrelevant anyway because, as previously stated above, TSR do not own any property of a Discord server (unless it is a Discord server that is specifically set up, administered by, and managed by, the TSR Community Team) and therefore cannot take action based on content that they do not own. Only content that is uploaded to The Student Room can be managed and moderated by TSR Community Team members, and therefore users of TSR cannot be warned, moderated, or banned, based on actions taken on a Discord server (the same can be said for any other public domain that TSR do not own, such as the TBAAJ forums).

Conclusions:
The obvious take-home conclusion here is that TSR's Community Team have been far too hasty in trying to resolve a problem that has been part of their site. Trying to resolve things by making drastic changes to their website, as well as the content of a significant number of members, was not the right decision, both from a moral perspective and a moderation perspective. Creating a read-only archive section would have resolved the issues raised with moderation, as well as giving members the ability to refer to, and reflect upon, content that has previously been posted. Giving members more time to read the announcement (and take appropriate action) would have also been a much better solution, extending the time before action to a minimum of 24 hours (preferably longer). Having limited avenues for discussion outside the "Ask The Community Team" forums is also very unhelpful for those members who may have been a part of the MHoC.

Please Note: This content will NOT be moved, edited, removed, or deleted. Using external influences (i.e. influences outside of TBAAJ) to have the content removed/edited/moved etc will not work and will either be refused or ignored. If you are offended by the aforementioned actions then do not use tactics to make us change our minds. It is your choice on whether you read or visit this website; we are not responsible for your actions taken. This thread, as well as all content posted within, will remain public unless we (the owners of TBAAJ Forums) choose otherwise.


Do you know if Mhoc has been physically removed from the forum database or if they've 'soft deleted' the lot by putting it into the recycle bin, so in effect it still exists but not to the public?

Also, this being curtains for Mhoc I suppose is exactly what you feared would happen with forum games if I continued creating new accounts to post on ctam with?


I can only quote what Blinky Bill (a TSR Community Team member) wrote: ..."The MHOC forums have now been closed. This error message is because the forums are no longer accessible."
So it seems like a soft deletion whereby the content is still present, but the permissions have been set so that only the Community Team can view the posts.
The MHoC specific usergroups have been removed, though I am unsure as to whether this was a "soft removal" or a deletion of the groups. My thinking is that it could be the latter, since the MHoC has been removed from view.

The MHoC forum link: https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=102 takes you to the sign in page, so you have to log in to view the content. This confirms that it is a soft deletion and that access is based on privileges that only the CT have.

The introduction page to the MHoC now just redirects to the UK Politics forums. So it seems like some articles have been completely deleted.

Indeed, this is what I was fearing would happen to TSR Forum Games, and if they've shown they can do this to the MHoC, a subsection which has had significant user activity over the years, then they can do it to any other part of the TSR website as well (though removing parts of your website that people spend significant amounts of activity in is not your smartest move if you want to keep your user base).

That's at least comforting to know that at least the 17 years of community spirit and good will built up by the Mhoc haven't completely gone down the drain, just slightly annoying it cannot be accessed any longer, although many users who aren't as technically minded as you or I, therefore probably won't understand the concept of 'soft delete' will likely be far more gutted.

I'm sure that if we took over the running of TSR, you'd at least make Mhoc a publicly accessible read only archive if nothing else?


Indeed, it hasn't got completely deleted from the servers, so is present in some form or other (even if the CT are the only ones who can see it). They've basically just flipped a switch in the ACP (like how we've always set "Other" and F13 forums) so that only the CT themselves have access to the pages. IMO, that's a pretty poor showing.

You're right, people who aren't used to how forums work, and aren't technically minded, won't know the difference between "soft delete" and "hard delete". It'll just be referred to as "deleted". Given that various forum software manufacturers, including Lithium (now Khoros), have a way of setting a forum archive, then it should be relatively straightforward to do in vBulletin (the software that TSR use). Even setting a forum to read only (except for certain privileged members), which is how we have BSW set up, would be perfectly adequate for the MHoC forums, so that they cannot be added to, and further rule breaking cannot continue in the MHoC, but at least the older posts can be referred back to.

If I had a privileged position in TSR (and I'm talking Community Team, not Volunteer Team or Volunteer Section Leader) then the MHoC would be a publicly readable archive (read only mode for all members).


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pinkteddyx64
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Re: TSR MODEL HOUSE OF COMMONS (MHOC) CLOSED/DELETED!

Postby pinkteddyx64 » January 17th, 2021, 3:19 pm

spotify95 wrote:
pinkteddyx64 wrote:
spotify95 wrote:
pinkteddyx64 wrote:
spotify95 wrote:Hello all,

First things first, to all of you that are reading this. This is a semi-private forum between a few regular users and we are not accepting any registrations at the moment. Therefore, the content we make public is because we choose to, for whatever reasoning. No amount of persuasion or threatening behavior will make us change our minds. This content is here to stay, and if you don't like it, then you don't have to visit this website.

It has come to my attention that the Model House Of Commons (MHoC) on The Student Room (TSR) forums has been closed.
Due to my limited presence on TSR Forums, I do not check the Help & Announcements pages regularly, and I have not been a member of the MHoC as it is not the type of content that I am interested in. Having said that, from what I have read so far, the following points have been noticed:

1) The MHoC has been problematic in the amount of resources required by the Community Team and Volunteers, to ensure that content is kept the correct side of the TSR Community Guidelines
2) Various threats have been made about taking action against the MHoC in the past - dating back to as early as 2008 - but nothing of the like of what has recently happened
3) The TSR Community Team have been extremely, and in this case unnecessarily, hasty in their decisions. Without so much as a warning, the entire MHoC has been deleted, as well as any content and usergroups relating to the MHoC. Members were not given any notice whatsoever and the content was pulled within 1 hour of a thread being made in the Help & Announcements section.
4) Furthermore, TSR CT have stated that "to support the community, prevent misinformation and help manage feedback efficiently, we’re limiting the conversation about the closure onsite. We’re requesting that all in-depth questions and feedback is posted directly in the Ask the Community Staff forum. Please ensure all posts within this thread follow Community Guidelines." In my honest opinion, this statement does nothing to show that the TSR Community Team have thought about their actions they have taken, and also proves how hasty the TSR Community Team can be: these are actions that undoubtedly affect a large number of TSR users. Quite often, going to Ask The Community Team/Ask The Community Staff (AtCT/AtCS) does not resolve issues in that only select information is shared, generic responses are given, and whatever information that is helpful enough to serve as an explanation to other members, is locked behind closed doors, thus limiting available information to members who require it.
5) Deleting the best part of 17 years worth of content on a whim is nowhere near justified, especially in this context. Trying to re-write history - or in this case, pretend that past actions didn't even happen - is a very lame excuse to try and cover any of your responsibilities. If you cared about any of your users - particularly the MHoC users - then you should have grouped all of your content into a single, read only forum, that is only accessible to registered users of the site, which cannot be added to or edited, but can be referred back to if required. It is quite commonplace to use archives on public forums, and other forums that I've been to also use the archive feature (and for good reasoning, e.g. to refer back to old discussions, but not to dig up an old, irrelevant discussion for no reason). In my honest opinion, I believe that an archive feature would have been way more appropriate and suitable than deleting over a decade worth of content. This is further reasoning that the Community Team were pressured into this decision, or panicked about how they would resolve this issue (hence the deletion).
6) Further to the above points, only two support/discussion threads were allowed to remain open about this topic: the main Help & Announcements announcement (not that you can call it an announcement when action will be taken in less than an hours' notice) and a dedicated farewell thread. Both have moderation notices scattered throughout them (which are not that helpful) and both have been closed in relatively short periods of time; further providing evidence to suggest that TSR do not want to discuss this matter; they do not want to consider the history that the MHoC has previously had, or to even consider its prior existence on the website.
7) Long time users of TSR MHoC believe that this has not been handled very well at all. I completely agree with the points that these users have made, and agree that this situation has not been handled very well at all. There was no proper chance to disband the MHoC and to say a proper farewell to the MHoC as a society group, since the amount of time between the "announcement" and the deletion of content, as well as the amount of time between the "announcement" and the closing of the support threads, was far too short. Changes that affect a large number of users like this should be carefully considered, and the appropriate actions taken with plenty of advance warning.
For example, when the TSR Volunteers (and the Community Team) wanted inputs into how to best manage the Forum Games subsection, they made a sticky announcement at the top of the forum subsection. The announcement is still stickied to the top of Forum Games even two years after its creation, emphasizing the point of using announcements to get the attention of forum members, in order to improve the service. In fact, even when Forum Games got too cluttered, the Volunteer Team (referred to as Moderators or Section Leaders back then) tagged me into a discussion and made sure that I was aware of what needed doing to improve that section of the site (since I was playing a big part in how Forum Games was shaping out to be).
Therefore, if the Community Team were taking this seriously, due to how many users this decision would be impacting, then the main "announcement" thread should have been stickied to the top of Help & Announcements for at least the day that full day of December 10, 2020, when the actions were taking place - though ideally, such an announcement (even if in read only mode) should have been made (and stickied) for much longer, i.e. the entirety of December, so that members could prepare for what was happening, and members who were not regular users of the MHoC could also be notified before it was too late. This would have also allowed for the entirety of the MHoC forums to be archived externally through a different website, such as the Internet Archive.
8) It seems like users of the MHoC have created external communications channels, such as Discord servers. Apparently, according to the Community Team, Discord "causes risks to the onsite community by: diluting the conversation and reducing engagement on TSR; allowing members banned from TSR to continue participating in the game and influencing those who play; presenting risks around young/vulnerable members being unfairly drawn into conversations off TSR where TSR guidelines/moderation can't support them, creating an environment where activities like doxing, bullying and harassment occur, which introduce a high level of complication to the TSR moderation process".
Let me state right now that Discord has its own terms of service which are in place to protect users - though specifics are often down to the hosts of the servers in question. However, what the Community Team have stated here is, to a point, simply untrue: it is a users' decision as to whether they want to participate on Discord or not, and since Discord is a totally different website to The Student Room, the TSR "Community Guidelines" have no effect on what a user can, or cannot, post on Discord. In addition to this, users on TSR simply cannot be moderated based on discussions and content that have happened on websites and communication channels that are external to The Student Room; for TSR to take action, the content must belong to them - meaning that the content must (in some form or another) be present on communication channels that The Student Room Group Ltd own, and have full influence over, i.e. The Student Room website (and all associated content, such as the forums), and ONLY The Student Room website. If people who are banned from The Student Room are also present on a Discord server (and are not banned from that Discord server), then they have every right to participate in the Discord based activities, as it is external to The Student Room. Activities such as "doxing, bullying and harassment" would be dealt with on a case by case basis, and would likely break Discord's terms of service (or at least the rules of most Discord servers, thus resulting in the loss of privileges, or being banned in that server) and "a high level of complication to the TSR moderation process" is irrelevant anyway because, as previously stated above, TSR do not own any property of a Discord server (unless it is a Discord server that is specifically set up, administered by, and managed by, the TSR Community Team) and therefore cannot take action based on content that they do not own. Only content that is uploaded to The Student Room can be managed and moderated by TSR Community Team members, and therefore users of TSR cannot be warned, moderated, or banned, based on actions taken on a Discord server (the same can be said for any other public domain that TSR do not own, such as the TBAAJ forums).

Conclusions:
The obvious take-home conclusion here is that TSR's Community Team have been far too hasty in trying to resolve a problem that has been part of their site. Trying to resolve things by making drastic changes to their website, as well as the content of a significant number of members, was not the right decision, both from a moral perspective and a moderation perspective. Creating a read-only archive section would have resolved the issues raised with moderation, as well as giving members the ability to refer to, and reflect upon, content that has previously been posted. Giving members more time to read the announcement (and take appropriate action) would have also been a much better solution, extending the time before action to a minimum of 24 hours (preferably longer). Having limited avenues for discussion outside the "Ask The Community Team" forums is also very unhelpful for those members who may have been a part of the MHoC.

Please Note: This content will NOT be moved, edited, removed, or deleted. Using external influences (i.e. influences outside of TBAAJ) to have the content removed/edited/moved etc will not work and will either be refused or ignored. If you are offended by the aforementioned actions then do not use tactics to make us change our minds. It is your choice on whether you read or visit this website; we are not responsible for your actions taken. This thread, as well as all content posted within, will remain public unless we (the owners of TBAAJ Forums) choose otherwise.


Do you know if Mhoc has been physically removed from the forum database or if they've 'soft deleted' the lot by putting it into the recycle bin, so in effect it still exists but not to the public?

Also, this being curtains for Mhoc I suppose is exactly what you feared would happen with forum games if I continued creating new accounts to post on ctam with?


I can only quote what Blinky Bill (a TSR Community Team member) wrote: ..."The MHOC forums have now been closed. This error message is because the forums are no longer accessible."
So it seems like a soft deletion whereby the content is still present, but the permissions have been set so that only the Community Team can view the posts.
The MHoC specific usergroups have been removed, though I am unsure as to whether this was a "soft removal" or a deletion of the groups. My thinking is that it could be the latter, since the MHoC has been removed from view.

The MHoC forum link: https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=102 takes you to the sign in page, so you have to log in to view the content. This confirms that it is a soft deletion and that access is based on privileges that only the CT have.

The introduction page to the MHoC now just redirects to the UK Politics forums. So it seems like some articles have been completely deleted.

Indeed, this is what I was fearing would happen to TSR Forum Games, and if they've shown they can do this to the MHoC, a subsection which has had significant user activity over the years, then they can do it to any other part of the TSR website as well (though removing parts of your website that people spend significant amounts of activity in is not your smartest move if you want to keep your user base).

That's at least comforting to know that at least the 17 years of community spirit and good will built up by the Mhoc haven't completely gone down the drain, just slightly annoying it cannot be accessed any longer, although many users who aren't as technically minded as you or I, therefore probably won't understand the concept of 'soft delete' will likely be far more gutted.

I'm sure that if we took over the running of TSR, you'd at least make Mhoc a publicly accessible read only archive if nothing else?


Indeed, it hasn't got completely deleted from the servers, so is present in some form or other (even if the CT are the only ones who can see it). They've basically just flipped a switch in the ACP (like how we've always set "Other" and F13 forums) so that only the CT themselves have access to the pages. IMO, that's a pretty poor showing.

You're right, people who aren't used to how forums work, and aren't technically minded, won't know the difference between "soft delete" and "hard delete". It'll just be referred to as "deleted". Given that various forum software manufacturers, including Lithium (now Khoros), have a way of setting a forum archive, then it should be relatively straightforward to do in vBulletin (the software that TSR use). Even setting a forum to read only (except for certain privileged members), which is how we have BSW set up, would be perfectly adequate for the MHoC forums, so that they cannot be added to, and further rule breaking cannot continue in the MHoC, but at least the older posts can be referred back to.

If I had a privileged position in TSR (and I'm talking Community Team, not Volunteer Team or Volunteer Section Leader) then the MHoC would be a publicly readable archive (read only mode for all members).

If they did the same to Chat/Forum Games as they did to Mhoc, they could expect a visit to their headquarters followed by a strongly worded rant.


Imageeriously, life's too short to be worried about retards on an internet forum. :eek2: :eek3:
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spotify95
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Re: TSR MODEL HOUSE OF COMMONS (MHOC) CLOSED/DELETED!

Postby spotify95 » February 3rd, 2021, 1:36 am

pinkteddyx64 wrote:
spotify95 wrote:
pinkteddyx64 wrote:
spotify95 wrote:
pinkteddyx64 wrote:
spotify95 wrote:Hello all,

First things first, to all of you that are reading this. This is a semi-private forum between a few regular users and we are not accepting any registrations at the moment. Therefore, the content we make public is because we choose to, for whatever reasoning. No amount of persuasion or threatening behavior will make us change our minds. This content is here to stay, and if you don't like it, then you don't have to visit this website.

It has come to my attention that the Model House Of Commons (MHoC) on The Student Room (TSR) forums has been closed.
Due to my limited presence on TSR Forums, I do not check the Help & Announcements pages regularly, and I have not been a member of the MHoC as it is not the type of content that I am interested in. Having said that, from what I have read so far, the following points have been noticed:

1) The MHoC has been problematic in the amount of resources required by the Community Team and Volunteers, to ensure that content is kept the correct side of the TSR Community Guidelines
2) Various threats have been made about taking action against the MHoC in the past - dating back to as early as 2008 - but nothing of the like of what has recently happened
3) The TSR Community Team have been extremely, and in this case unnecessarily, hasty in their decisions. Without so much as a warning, the entire MHoC has been deleted, as well as any content and usergroups relating to the MHoC. Members were not given any notice whatsoever and the content was pulled within 1 hour of a thread being made in the Help & Announcements section.
4) Furthermore, TSR CT have stated that "to support the community, prevent misinformation and help manage feedback efficiently, we’re limiting the conversation about the closure onsite. We’re requesting that all in-depth questions and feedback is posted directly in the Ask the Community Staff forum. Please ensure all posts within this thread follow Community Guidelines." In my honest opinion, this statement does nothing to show that the TSR Community Team have thought about their actions they have taken, and also proves how hasty the TSR Community Team can be: these are actions that undoubtedly affect a large number of TSR users. Quite often, going to Ask The Community Team/Ask The Community Staff (AtCT/AtCS) does not resolve issues in that only select information is shared, generic responses are given, and whatever information that is helpful enough to serve as an explanation to other members, is locked behind closed doors, thus limiting available information to members who require it.
5) Deleting the best part of 17 years worth of content on a whim is nowhere near justified, especially in this context. Trying to re-write history - or in this case, pretend that past actions didn't even happen - is a very lame excuse to try and cover any of your responsibilities. If you cared about any of your users - particularly the MHoC users - then you should have grouped all of your content into a single, read only forum, that is only accessible to registered users of the site, which cannot be added to or edited, but can be referred back to if required. It is quite commonplace to use archives on public forums, and other forums that I've been to also use the archive feature (and for good reasoning, e.g. to refer back to old discussions, but not to dig up an old, irrelevant discussion for no reason). In my honest opinion, I believe that an archive feature would have been way more appropriate and suitable than deleting over a decade worth of content. This is further reasoning that the Community Team were pressured into this decision, or panicked about how they would resolve this issue (hence the deletion).
6) Further to the above points, only two support/discussion threads were allowed to remain open about this topic: the main Help & Announcements announcement (not that you can call it an announcement when action will be taken in less than an hours' notice) and a dedicated farewell thread. Both have moderation notices scattered throughout them (which are not that helpful) and both have been closed in relatively short periods of time; further providing evidence to suggest that TSR do not want to discuss this matter; they do not want to consider the history that the MHoC has previously had, or to even consider its prior existence on the website.
7) Long time users of TSR MHoC believe that this has not been handled very well at all. I completely agree with the points that these users have made, and agree that this situation has not been handled very well at all. There was no proper chance to disband the MHoC and to say a proper farewell to the MHoC as a society group, since the amount of time between the "announcement" and the deletion of content, as well as the amount of time between the "announcement" and the closing of the support threads, was far too short. Changes that affect a large number of users like this should be carefully considered, and the appropriate actions taken with plenty of advance warning.
For example, when the TSR Volunteers (and the Community Team) wanted inputs into how to best manage the Forum Games subsection, they made a sticky announcement at the top of the forum subsection. The announcement is still stickied to the top of Forum Games even two years after its creation, emphasizing the point of using announcements to get the attention of forum members, in order to improve the service. In fact, even when Forum Games got too cluttered, the Volunteer Team (referred to as Moderators or Section Leaders back then) tagged me into a discussion and made sure that I was aware of what needed doing to improve that section of the site (since I was playing a big part in how Forum Games was shaping out to be).
Therefore, if the Community Team were taking this seriously, due to how many users this decision would be impacting, then the main "announcement" thread should have been stickied to the top of Help & Announcements for at least the day that full day of December 10, 2020, when the actions were taking place - though ideally, such an announcement (even if in read only mode) should have been made (and stickied) for much longer, i.e. the entirety of December, so that members could prepare for what was happening, and members who were not regular users of the MHoC could also be notified before it was too late. This would have also allowed for the entirety of the MHoC forums to be archived externally through a different website, such as the Internet Archive.
8) It seems like users of the MHoC have created external communications channels, such as Discord servers. Apparently, according to the Community Team, Discord "causes risks to the onsite community by: diluting the conversation and reducing engagement on TSR; allowing members banned from TSR to continue participating in the game and influencing those who play; presenting risks around young/vulnerable members being unfairly drawn into conversations off TSR where TSR guidelines/moderation can't support them, creating an environment where activities like doxing, bullying and harassment occur, which introduce a high level of complication to the TSR moderation process".
Let me state right now that Discord has its own terms of service which are in place to protect users - though specifics are often down to the hosts of the servers in question. However, what the Community Team have stated here is, to a point, simply untrue: it is a users' decision as to whether they want to participate on Discord or not, and since Discord is a totally different website to The Student Room, the TSR "Community Guidelines" have no effect on what a user can, or cannot, post on Discord. In addition to this, users on TSR simply cannot be moderated based on discussions and content that have happened on websites and communication channels that are external to The Student Room; for TSR to take action, the content must belong to them - meaning that the content must (in some form or another) be present on communication channels that The Student Room Group Ltd own, and have full influence over, i.e. The Student Room website (and all associated content, such as the forums), and ONLY The Student Room website. If people who are banned from The Student Room are also present on a Discord server (and are not banned from that Discord server), then they have every right to participate in the Discord based activities, as it is external to The Student Room. Activities such as "doxing, bullying and harassment" would be dealt with on a case by case basis, and would likely break Discord's terms of service (or at least the rules of most Discord servers, thus resulting in the loss of privileges, or being banned in that server) and "a high level of complication to the TSR moderation process" is irrelevant anyway because, as previously stated above, TSR do not own any property of a Discord server (unless it is a Discord server that is specifically set up, administered by, and managed by, the TSR Community Team) and therefore cannot take action based on content that they do not own. Only content that is uploaded to The Student Room can be managed and moderated by TSR Community Team members, and therefore users of TSR cannot be warned, moderated, or banned, based on actions taken on a Discord server (the same can be said for any other public domain that TSR do not own, such as the TBAAJ forums).

Conclusions:
The obvious take-home conclusion here is that TSR's Community Team have been far too hasty in trying to resolve a problem that has been part of their site. Trying to resolve things by making drastic changes to their website, as well as the content of a significant number of members, was not the right decision, both from a moral perspective and a moderation perspective. Creating a read-only archive section would have resolved the issues raised with moderation, as well as giving members the ability to refer to, and reflect upon, content that has previously been posted. Giving members more time to read the announcement (and take appropriate action) would have also been a much better solution, extending the time before action to a minimum of 24 hours (preferably longer). Having limited avenues for discussion outside the "Ask The Community Team" forums is also very unhelpful for those members who may have been a part of the MHoC.

Please Note: This content will NOT be moved, edited, removed, or deleted. Using external influences (i.e. influences outside of TBAAJ) to have the content removed/edited/moved etc will not work and will either be refused or ignored. If you are offended by the aforementioned actions then do not use tactics to make us change our minds. It is your choice on whether you read or visit this website; we are not responsible for your actions taken. This thread, as well as all content posted within, will remain public unless we (the owners of TBAAJ Forums) choose otherwise.


Do you know if Mhoc has been physically removed from the forum database or if they've 'soft deleted' the lot by putting it into the recycle bin, so in effect it still exists but not to the public?

Also, this being curtains for Mhoc I suppose is exactly what you feared would happen with forum games if I continued creating new accounts to post on ctam with?


I can only quote what Blinky Bill (a TSR Community Team member) wrote: ..."The MHOC forums have now been closed. This error message is because the forums are no longer accessible."
So it seems like a soft deletion whereby the content is still present, but the permissions have been set so that only the Community Team can view the posts.
The MHoC specific usergroups have been removed, though I am unsure as to whether this was a "soft removal" or a deletion of the groups. My thinking is that it could be the latter, since the MHoC has been removed from view.

The MHoC forum link: https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=102 takes you to the sign in page, so you have to log in to view the content. This confirms that it is a soft deletion and that access is based on privileges that only the CT have.

The introduction page to the MHoC now just redirects to the UK Politics forums. So it seems like some articles have been completely deleted.

Indeed, this is what I was fearing would happen to TSR Forum Games, and if they've shown they can do this to the MHoC, a subsection which has had significant user activity over the years, then they can do it to any other part of the TSR website as well (though removing parts of your website that people spend significant amounts of activity in is not your smartest move if you want to keep your user base).

That's at least comforting to know that at least the 17 years of community spirit and good will built up by the Mhoc haven't completely gone down the drain, just slightly annoying it cannot be accessed any longer, although many users who aren't as technically minded as you or I, therefore probably won't understand the concept of 'soft delete' will likely be far more gutted.

I'm sure that if we took over the running of TSR, you'd at least make Mhoc a publicly accessible read only archive if nothing else?


Indeed, it hasn't got completely deleted from the servers, so is present in some form or other (even if the CT are the only ones who can see it). They've basically just flipped a switch in the ACP (like how we've always set "Other" and F13 forums) so that only the CT themselves have access to the pages. IMO, that's a pretty poor showing.

You're right, people who aren't used to how forums work, and aren't technically minded, won't know the difference between "soft delete" and "hard delete". It'll just be referred to as "deleted". Given that various forum software manufacturers, including Lithium (now Khoros), have a way of setting a forum archive, then it should be relatively straightforward to do in vBulletin (the software that TSR use). Even setting a forum to read only (except for certain privileged members), which is how we have BSW set up, would be perfectly adequate for the MHoC forums, so that they cannot be added to, and further rule breaking cannot continue in the MHoC, but at least the older posts can be referred back to.

If I had a privileged position in TSR (and I'm talking Community Team, not Volunteer Team or Volunteer Section Leader) then the MHoC would be a publicly readable archive (read only mode for all members).

If they did the same to Chat/Forum Games as they did to Mhoc, they could expect a visit to their headquarters followed by a strongly worded rant.

I don't think that Chat and/or Forum Games will be going anywhere for the foreseeable future :)



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